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24 May 2010
Josh Loveless talks with Tony Campolo about his latest book, Choose Love Not Power. The following is an excerpt from their insightful conversation. Click to listen now or subscribe at iTunes.
Why has it been so difficult for us to get the issue of power right when our model for power is the person of Jesus, who had a subversive way of doing it?
You know, you’ve hit on something that I’ve hit on in the book. Almost every church fight, in the end, is a power game. Every denomination is struggling with groups playing power games. You have people organizing in the church. Let me tell you a little side story that’s kind of funny. In ’76, I ran for Congress, and after I won the primary, I was taken down to Washington. I had an interview with the head of the democratic party, and it wasn’t going well. And I said to him, “Do you think just because I’m a Baptist minister, I can’t be a good politician?” And the response was, “Mr. Campolo, the fact that you’re a Baptist minister leaves no doubt in my mind that you’re an excellent politician. My question is, do you have any ethics?” Ouch. But the world out there looks at the church, and looks at its internal functioning, and sees a people, a church business meeting lining up votes ahead of time, making sure that they are able to impose their will on the rest of the congregation This is not the way of Christ. “Submit yourselves one to another in love,” says Jesus. “Let each esteem the other better than himself.” I don’t see that operating too often. I don’t see the church in its everyday interactions doing this. I find, sometimes, congregations are organizing to exercise power against the pastor. I have seen pastors, and myself included, playing power games against the congregation. Very often you’ll hear people say about a given pastor, “He’s a good man, or she’s a good woman, but our pastor is a control freak. Has to control everything, has to be in on everything, and doesn’t let anybody else ever enter into the process of ministering.” Many people in the life of a church do not get the opportunity to exercise their gifts, simply because the power is in the hands of the minister and he wants do everything and control everything, or she wants to do everything and control everything. These kinds of behavioral practices are destroying us as Christians.
Can you tell us a little bit about what has changed in you personally or in the context of our culture that has made you want to be a little more intentional about gender issues and power issues?
Of course, we all learn more and more about the interactions between men and women. As I look through the book that was written a long time ago, back in the early 80’s, I realize that my language was not an inclusive language. People say, “That’s just feminist rhetoric.” It’s not. Language is very, very important. The way we talk about things determines how we think about things. I think when it even comes to understanding God, we have to begin to recognize that God is beyond masculinity and femininity.
